07-11-2007

NOAM CHOMSKY ON RELIGION AND POLITICS

Noam Chomsky, the MIT linguist, is well known globally as an American dissident and anti-imperialist gadfly. He spoke recently with Amina Chaudary of Islamica Magazine.

By Noam Chomsky

Amina Chaudary: What happens when religion merges with politics -- and how is this any different than other forms of identity merging with politics, such as ethnicity?

Noam Chomsky: Well, the major problems of the world are those that appear in the most powerful states almost by definition, because whatever affects them affects everyone. And the most powerful state in the world by orders of magnitude is the U.S., and it also happens to be one of the most extreme fundamentalist countries in the world. Extremist fundamentalist religion may well have a greater hold in the U.S. on the public than say in Iran, though I’ve never seen a poll in Iran. But I doubt 50 percent of the population thinks the world was created 6,000 years ago exactly the way it is now.

This is actually strange because way back in American history to the time of the colonists, there have been eras of religious revivalism. Most recently we see this in the 1950s, which was a big period of religious revivalism. That’s how we get phrases like “In God We Trust” and “One Nation Under God.” Religious revivalism picked up again in recent years. Until recent years, it was not a major force in political affairs. That has happened in the last 25 years and it is now an enormous force -- fundamentalist religion, not all religion by any means.

So, for example, the U.S. has often been bitterly opposed to Christianity. That painting (points to a picture in his office) is an illustration of the hatred of U.S. leaders for the Catholic Church. It was given to me 15 years ago by a Jesuit priest. It is a painting of the Angel of Death on one side with Archbishop Romero, who was assassinated, and right below are six leading intellectuals who were murdered by an elite U.S.-run battalion. That framed the decade of the 1980s: Romero was assassinated by U.S.-backed forces in 1980, Jesuit priests in 1989 and, in between, the U.S. carried out a major war against the Catholic Church.

Many of the victims of (President) Reagan’s efforts in Central America were nuns, lay workers, and for clear and explicit reasons, which you can see officially stated, like the famous School of the Americas, which trains Latin American officers. One of its advertising points is that the U.S. Army helped defeat liberation theology, which was a dominant force, and it was an enemy for the same reason that secular nationalism in the Arab world was an enemy -- it was working for the poor. This is the same reason why Hamas and Hezbollah are enemies: They are working for the poor. It doesn’t matter if they are Catholic or Muslim or anything else; that is intolerable. The Church of Latin America had undertaken “the preferential option for the poor.” They committed the crime of going back to the Gospels. The contents of the Gospels are mostly suppressed (in the U.S.); they are a radical pacifist collection of documents. It was turned into the religion of the rich by the Emperor Constantine, who eviscerated its content. If anyone dares to go back to the Gospels, they become the enemy, which is what liberation theology was doing. So it’s a mixed story.

However, in the U.S., the more extremist, by comparative standards, religious movements did become mobilized into a political force for the first time in history (only over the last 25 years). It’s striking that this is one of the worst periods of economic history for the majority of the population, for whom real wages and incomes have stagnated while work hours increased and benefits declined, and inequality grew to staggering proportions, a dramatic difference from the previous 25 years of very high and egalitarian economic growth and improvement in other measures of human development. There is a correlation, common in other parts of the world as well. When life is not offering expected benefits, people commonly turn to some means of support from religion. Furthermore, there is a lot of cynicism. It was recognized by party managers of both parties (Republicans and Democrats) that if they can throw some red meat to religious fundamentalist constituencies, like say we are against gay rights, they can pick up votes. In fact, maybe a third of the electorate -- if you cater to elements of the religious right in ways that the business world, the real constituency, doesn’t care that much about.

AC: It is interesting to see the position of religion in the U.S. How would you understand this “Western” view of Islam, and could you also elaborate on this idea of secular nationalism?

NC: The attitude toward Islam is quite complex. The U.S. has always supported the most extreme fundamentalist Islamic movements and still does. The oldest and most valued ally of the U.S. in the Arab world is Saudi Arabia, which is also the most extremist fundamentalist state. By comparison, Iran looks like a free democratic society -- but Saudi Arabia was doing its job. The enemy for most of this period has been secular nationalism. U.S.-Israeli relations, for example, really firmed up in 1967 when Israel performed a real service for the U.S. and Saudi Arabia. Namely, it smashed the main center of secular nationalism, (Gamal Abdul) Nasser’s Egypt, which was considered a threat and more or less at war with Saudi Arabia at the time. It was threatening to use the huge resources of the region for the benefit of the population of the countries of the region, and not to fill the pockets of some rich tyrant while vast profits flowed to Western corporations.

AC: What we see in various Muslim countries is a type of Islamic autocracy in which leaders use Islam to justify and concentrate their own power. Some scholars of the Middle East point to the difficulty that comes with granting political power to religious groups or clergy. Do you think secularism is a vital component of politics? Today, it appears that secularism is synonymous with anti-religion.

NC: I think that secularism is a vital component of democratic politics, for reasons that seem evident. A secular democracy that upholds human rights is neither pro- nor anti-religion. Rather, it is neutral with regard to personal belief systems. There are deficiencies in U.S. democracy, but its secularism is not one of them, and it is clearly not “synonymous with anti-religion.”

AC: So empirically you can see a rise of religious expression in certain regions. Do you think the world is becoming more religious?

NC: I don’t. In places where secular movements have been devastated either from within by corruption or from without by violence, it happens in many ways. The U.S. hasn’t been devastated by foreign attack or suffered severe internal problems, but as I mentioned, there was a sharp decline in the economic and social fortunes of the majority, and religious extremism has grown, at least become more visible in the political arena. Something similar has happened in the Islamic world. Take the rise of Hezbollah and Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. One major reason for their popular support is that they provide social services. If you want to feed the poor child or a poor person living in the Cairo slums . . .

AC: Right, but how much do you think that is rooted in their personal profession of religion -- an increase in religiosity?

NC: It varies. I once went to Egypt about 15 years ago, and I met with a group of Islamic intellectuals. They were talking about the social service networks and groups and so on and so forth. I didn’t know who most of them were. I came back and talked to my friend, who knew Egypt well, about the meeting and he kind of laughed and he said one of them was a Copt, one of them a Communist and they sort of recognized that their way to power and influence is to associate themselves with the one organization in Egypt that is paying attention to the needs of the poor (the Muslim Brotherhood). So I expect there is some variation, some of it sincere, some of it not, and as always, one should be pretty cautious.

AC: Do you think that religious-based groups are reacting to this idea of the “West” or rather a perceived threat to their own identity and, say for example, their Islamic heritage?

NC: First of all, what is this “West”? Is the West the United States -- one of the most fundamentalist countries in the world and a strong supporter of extreme Islamic fundamentalism? I think there are many strains that enter into this, but there is a strong tradition of democratic secularism in the world. But mostly it’s been crushed, often by force, often by outside force and sometimes for internal reasons. But for a variety of reasons these tendencies have been, for the most part, marginalized. Their place is taken by Islamists for many reasons, among them providing social services, as in South Lebanon and other places. If you are a poor person with a sick child and you need help, that’s where you’re going to find it. Not in the government sector. And those things spread and make a difference.

Part of it is religious belief and part of it is charismatic figures. There are a lot of reasons. Just in recent months, my suspicion is that there will be an increase thanks to the dramatic success of Hezbollah holding off an Israeli invasion -- the first time that has ever happened. The Israeli army literally could not make it to the Litani River after a month’s fighting. In fact they tried very hard in the last three days just to get a photo opportunity at the Litani River, which was in big contrast to the 1982 war, when they just got there as fast as the tanks could go. We do know just from polls that support for Hezbollah and (its leader Sheikh Hassan) Nasrallah has increased very sharply. Whether this will lead to identification with religious movements or not is unclear.

AC: It seems to be linked to what is going on in Israel.

NC: In this case, it is obviously linked to Israel. In Lebanon, it is correctly identified as a U.S.-Israeli invasion, which it was. So, yes, in this case it was linked, as in many other cases. Don’t forget that the Palestinians are being destroyed in a systematic U.S.-Israeli program of crushing Gaza and dismembering the West Bank and imprisoning it between regions of Israeli annexation. That is essentially killing the nation. It is neither secular nor religious. Actually, a lot of Christians have been driven out.

© Global Viewpont/Islamica Magazine,

DISTRIBUTED BY TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICES, JULY 10, 2007