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Recep Tayyip Erdogan is the chairman of the Justice and Development Party in Turkey which has recently won elections and is the ruling party there. Mohamad Mahathir is the prime minister of Malaysia. Global Viewpoint editor Nathan Gardels spoke to them both in Davos, Switzerland, over the weekend. After the interview, Erdogan, a moderate Muslim leader, hosted a reception in Davos that featured Miss World for 2003, who is Turkish. Radical Muslim riots forced the Miss World contest out of Nigeria late last year, and the contest was finally held in London.

GLOBAL VIEWPOINT: Many people don't want Turkey to be part of Europe because it is Islamic. Why, indeed, should Turkey be in Europe?

RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN: Turkey's accession process to the European Union, which will begin in 2004, is going to provide an opportunity to show that a culture of Islam and democracy can work together. Eighty percent of Turks want to be in the European Union -- a figure higher than most countries already a part of the EU.

And since democracy and Islam hardly coexist anywhere in the world, Turkey will prove to be a great model. This will change the view of the Islamic world toward the European Union in a positive manner and vice versa. At this point in history, Turkey has a special role as the bridge between Europe and Asia.

Our accession to Europe will, in fact, prove Prof. (Samuel) Huntington's idea of a ''clash of civilizations'' wrong. On the contrary, it will show that a union of civilizations is possible.
The European Union is about the unification of values; it is not about geographical union or a question of borders. By accepting Cyprus, they have already admitted this.

Clearly, the so-called ''identity'' of Europe has not been decided. It is only in the process of being defined, politically, economically and culturally. Turkey's process of accession will help ultimately to define what Europe is.

GV: Speaking of values, Europe today is a place where the military has no role in governance. Yet under the so-called ''Kemalist'' state in Turkey, the military still stands as the ultimate arbiter of power. Will this change?

ERDOGAN: During the creation and building of the Turkish Republic, the military had a very special role and important responsibilities. If politicians left a gap in political life, then the military would take part of it.

But this role of the military has evolved over the years toward a situation where policy is left to the politicians. Today there is stability and a strong political will in Turkey -- we have the strongest parliament in the last 50 years with two dominant parties. My party has 66 percent control of the parliament. So today, the political will of the people is the last word. It makes the final decision. The political will is the highest authority according to democracy and our constitution. The military is not at an equal level. It is one of the organizations that supports the political will.

GV: Turkey is between Iraq and a hard spot, gathering together its neighbors to try to head off a war with Saddam Hussein. How do you think this situation will be resolved?

ERDOGAN: In 1991 we paid a major price for that war with Iraq. Tens of thousands of people lost their lives in our country because of the terrorism that emerged in our country (i.e. the Kurdish question--editor) after the war. The price was more than $100 billion, and we are still paying that bill. Our economy was devastated.

We don't want to pay this kind of price one more time. We don't want to go through the same problems in our southeast region.
We approach Iraq as an issue of international law. In Turkey we want peace to be globalized, and that can only be achieved by the rule of law. We have a very basic principle: We are against all authoritarian and totalitarian regimes -- anywhere. We are in favor of democratic, secular states where everyone is equal under the law.

As far as Iraq and war are concerned, the report of the U.N. arms inspectors is very important. After that the decision of the Security Council is important. The final decision about our participation in war will be taken by the people who represent the nation in parliament. We desire a peaceful solution because we don't want to see any more bloodshed in the world.

GV: Isn't a peaceful solution to the Iraqi crisis, though, in the hands of Saddam Hussein, not the United States?

ERDOGAN: The decision of Saddam Hussein or any other person is not important for us. The decision that is important for us is that of the U.N. Security Council after they hear from the inspectors. They are the legitimate union of nations, and we are bound by what they decide and will take the necessary steps accordingly.

GV: You have said that ''there is much talk about how we should eliminate weapons of mass destruction. This is a good idea. But those who say this don't seem much interested in eliminating their own weapons, but in fact are talking about strengthening their weapons.''

Are you implying hypocrisy on the part of United States in going to war with states to deprive them of mass destruction weapons, while keeping and strengthening their own?

ERDOGAN: If weapons of mass destruction are to be eliminated, we shouldn't distinguish between small nations and big nations.

GV: There are many Kurds in exile or as refugees in Europe who dream of going home to a Kurdish entity. Can you one day envision that?

ERDOGAN: No. There is only Turkey.

GV: You are the head of a Muslim party in a secular state. How will that relationship work?

ERDOGAN: First of all, a party cannot be Muslim or not Muslim. A party is an institution. Individuals can be Muslim, Christian or atheist. It is personal.

Personally, I am a human being who tries to be religious. But my party is not based on any religion. Our identity is that of a conservative democrat political party. We will never have a religious identity. This is a founding principle of our party: We are neither Islamic nor Islamist.

There are many who think that ''since there are Christian Democrats in Europe, then these guys must be Muslim Democrats.'' That is wrong. If we placed the word ''Muslim'' or ''Islamic'' in front of the name of our party -- the Justice and Development Party -- that would be using religion for political purposes. And we are opposed to that.

Our religion, Islam, is infallible. But political parties and their leaders are not -- they make mistakes. So, we have to separate the two.

GV: You talked often about religious freedom during your campaign. Now that your party is in power, can you recite the poem that once got you arrested for religious incitement? (The poem spoke of ''mosques as barracks'' -- ed.)

ERDOGAN: The poem I recited was written by a famous pan-Turkish writer who was an ideologue of Ataturk. I did recite that poem in a different situation in a different time. Now, for a limited period of time, I am on leave, so to speak. Maybe later I will recite it again.



By Mohamad Mahathir

Mohamad Mahathir is the prime minister of Malaysia.

DAVOS, Switzerland
-- Since Kemal Ataturk, the Turks have believed they could become a modern state like the Europeans if they became secular and separated religion and state. This strategy is not convincing to Muslims, who, after all, are believers. If you say that modernization means secularization, then that will be rejected in the Islamic world.

In Malaysia we don't say that Islam is the problem, but the answer. The problem today in most Islamic countries is that Islam has been taken over and distorted by scholars who believe the only learning is about religion, not about science, mathematics and technology and development. From the time that began to happen, Islam fell into decline.

Let's remember that one reason Islam was so widely accepted among the Arabs in the first place was because it was a modernizing force in its time of ascent there. It created a new civilization.

We tell our people we can do the same in Malaysia. Islam is the answer if we translate it properly -- and that means we need education and knowledge. That is what we teach in our schools. After all, the first injunction of the Koran is to seek knowledge -- to read as in early Islam when Muslims scholars not only read the Christian scriptures and the Torah, but later translated the works of the Greeks and Romans and Persians into Arabic.

I believe this is the right way for modernization in the Muslim world.

(c) 2003, Global Viewpoint. Distributed by Tribune Media Services International.
For immediate release (Distributed 1/27/03)